Thursday, December 24, 2009

Eclipse Discussion: Chapter Two: Evasion

Obviously, there will be book spoilers for Eclipse in this post. Go read.

Welcome to chapter two! You know, in someways, for me at least, this is a crazy way to do this. one chapter a week. How fast did we all burn through this book the first time?! However, it's fun to have the time to think through the chapter, and I know that Amber and Sabrina are enjoying it, too.

In chapter two, we see a lot more of the tension between Edward and Bella regarding Jacob. Bella is celebrating her freedom from her restriction. Alice is making grandiose plans only she can fathom. Then she gets a vision, disturbing enough that her reaction makes even the humans notice. Bella, and us readers, definitely know something hinky is up, but what? "Evasion" becomes a perfect name for the chapter, and Edward and Alice neatly sidestep all of Bella's question. Edward brings up Bella's birthday gifts, leaving all of us spluttering a little, and convinces (I might be using that term loosely) Bella and Charlie that a trip to see Renee is in order. Bella also indulges in some evasion as she makes an attempt to visit Jacob, only to be thwarted by Edward. Oh Edward...

Here's our discussion on the chapter:

Kerry: This chapter is not Edward's finest moment.
Sabrina : I'm sure you guys will say he is justified... but I am going to preemptively disagree.
Kerry: but in a way I like it, because it shows that he's so not perfect..
Kerry: either way, I think it's obvious to the reader and to Bella that she's not getting the whole story...she's just not willing to fight at that moment, she figures she'll ask again later
Amber: I think that's exactly right, she's satisfied for the moment and she'll ask more about it later
Sabrina : I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think she really does buy it.
Amber: I don't think she's 100% convinced either
Amber: she says she was overreacting, doesn't she?
Amber: that she was imagining things?
Kerry: consider where she's at...she's been fairly paranoid lately
Kerry: easy to second guess herself
Kerry: I'm not going to say she wasn't just being blind, just, trying to find a reason why she would be. I don't buy the 'Bella is a vapid idiot' crap. Girl has just been through hell already and it isn't over yet.
Amber: I don't think she's an idiot either
Sabrina : Oh no, I don't think she's an idiot at all.
Sabrina : I just think that she trusts Edward completely. Maybe that trust is usually well-placed. Not so much in this instance.
Kerry: Sorry, I get a little carried away on that
Kerry: Right
Sabrina : It happens,
Amber: just because he isn't being totally upfront
Amber: you know what chickadees? at this point in the book, we don't know he isn't being honest
Kerry: oh I didn't buy it the first time
Sabrina : ... I dunno. I think it's fairly obvious that he is lying.
Kerry: I wasn't sure exactly what it was, but I was fairly certain it wasn't Jasper
Amber: but it's not confirmed
Sabrina : And when he started making plans to go out of state, I figured that it was to keep Bella from some sort of danger.
Sabrina : I just wasn't sure what kind.
Amber: or just to keep her away from something
Amber: honestly, I thought the Volturi was coming the first time that I read it
Kerry: I wonder about where Edward's mind is in this chapter, he is far from his usual charming self. Using her birthday presents as a segue into using the tickets?
Sabrina : The way he forces the issue with Charlie reeks of desperation. At least, Edward's version of desperation.
Sabrina : Yeah, that was highly unusual.
Sabrina : Amber, I thought about the volturi first thing, too.
Kerry: exactly, that too, I mean, some amount of railroading would have been necessary with Charlie anyway, to sell him on it..
Kerry: but talk about all the finesse of a bulldozer
Sabrina : Seriously
Amber: true
Sabrina : I mean, cleverly played, but very heavy handed. Bella was kind of forced to fight for her right to see Renee.
Amber: Edward generally would have been much smoother about it
Amber: He knew Charlie would be against it and that would make Bella fight back
Kerry: Charlie was only really against Edward
Amber: Definitely
Kerry: and technically, there is nothing Charlie could have done to stop it
Sabrina : I know I said this before... but I can't wait to see this scene in the movie.
Amber: and I felt so bad for Edward when she asked about Jacob
Amber: but she was 100% right
Kerry: yeah, that was probably painful for Edward, but it was a valid point
Sabrina : Well, Edward brought up his share of painful topics in this chapter, also
Sabrina : The stereo, to name one.
Kerry: true, the whole birthday reference in general
Amber: which seems odd
Amber: he obviously knew the stereo wasn't there, he'd been in the truck
Sabrina : Very.... especially the guilt trip that went along with it.
Kerry: Makes me wonder how desperate he was feeling, because he was not at all as smooth as he could have been.
Sabrina : Uncharacteristically shaken, he'd just thought she was dead
Amber: and he was afraid she was in danger again. He was incredibly desperate.
Kerry: Evidence that he's probably as messed up as Bella at this point, despite his 109 years, and all he's learned and seen, there is definitely still a 17 year old in there.
Kerry: we laugh about the kissing and everything, but it applies to the emotional age too
Amber: and nothing has ever mattered to him the way that Bella does
Amber: everyone else in his life that he cares about is fairly indestructible
Sabrina : It's mostly the romantic inexperience that make a difference in this situation
Amber: Bella is anything but
Amber: I wouldn't say romantic inexperience so much as emotional inexperience
Kerry: yes, he's just as new to "how to have a relationship" as she is
Sabrina : Well, he's not new to love in general. Maybe the "eros" type, but not unfamiliar with the feeling. It's the fact that he's never had a chance to put it in practice that makes him make so many mistakes with it.
Amber: and it's not exactly your normal first love
Amber: I mean, he is afraid that he himself could be the end of her
Sabrina : Well, that's for sure
Amber: and in New Moon he made it very clear that he feels like she's in danger because of him
Kerry: and at this point, he's willing to accept that, because he knows he can't survive without her..but it's made him even more overbearing when it comes to her safety
Sabrina : Which brings us to Charlie's little "lecture"
Amber: "are you being safe?"
Kerry: haha...poor Charlie
Sabrina : I know, it's so fatherly.
Amber: this one I really hope to see Billy Burke do
Kerry: but at least he's being Dad...after all, his daughter is making plans to go away for the weekend with her boyfriend, and considering Renee, the. fact that she's at her mother's house doesn't seem like it would dissuade sex like it might normally.
Amber: although it is to visit her mother...he's already made a slight reference to how well Renee will supervise
Sabrina : No. Speaking of which, I though Bella's little internal monologue about Renee was really cute.
Amber: stepping away from this chapter for just a second, I think this kind of helps to set up the reaction that Renee has to Bella's engagement
Sabrina : ... the sex talk?
Amber: no
Amber: her internal dialogue
Kerry: I think the whole conversation was another example of how Charlie's actually trying to be a Dad...
Amber: and I think he does a decent job of it
Kerry: definitely, as embarrassing as it was for Bella and him, it's one of those things on the parenting to-do list..
Sabrina : fun times
Sabrina : Yeah, trust me, it is.
Amber: ah yes, you have a teenager
Sabrina : Anyhoo... so Bella decides to go see Jacob.
Kerry: I have to say out of the entire series this is the one moment I was truly pissed off at Edward..
Sabrina : Yeah, I was pretty upset myself
Sabrina : It makes me wonder how much of his reaction is jealousy rather than for her own protection.
Kerry: Honestly, it that regard, it made me more certain that it was protection related, as opposed to jealousy.
Kerry: or at least *more* than jealousy...
Kerry: I think if it was just jealousy only, he would have let her go
Amber: It didn't make me mad at him
Sabrina : .... so what did you think?
Amber: I may have smiled
Amber: it was Edward being Edward to me
Kerry: Yes, Edward, but disabling her car? too far...though I love it for his show of imperfection..
Amber: no
Sabrina : I wish she would have left the window closed
Amber: I mean, he's worried, genuinely concerned.
Amber: think about Emily, we've seen what a wolf can do, and all Edward sees is a pack of young wolves.
Kerry: And a place he can't be to watch over her
Amber: and in his defense...Bella's not the best judge of what is a dangerous situation for her and what isn't
Sabrina : ... and the fact that they saved her life on several occasions shouldn't mean anything to him?
Amber: I never said that
Amber: but he knows that things are different now that the Cullens are back as well
Kerry: Of course it much so that he expressed his gratitude AND admitted his fault in it in New Moon..
Sabrina : If they were in Forks, I can see that. But nothing has really changed on the res, right?
Amber: but on the res, he can't be with her
Amber: he can't protect here
Amber: her
Kerry: Except that Edward can't be there...and Edward can only trust himself or his family to protect Bella.
Amber: things have changed on the res, because Bella chose the vampires
Sabrina : Well, she hasn't officially chosen yet.
Amber: her choosing the vampires changed the way the wolves see her
Kerry: yes she has.
Sabrina : they would still be bound to protect her
Amber: of course they're bound to protect her, but she's also pretty much their least favorite human
Amber: and once their temper is flared, they could easily hurt her
Amber: has already demonstrated that
Sabrina : And Jacob would defend her. He already demonstrated that.
Amber: Sweetie, it's not about him defending her
Kerry: I think that's besides the point at this point in the story. The key here, I believe, is that Edward simply does not trust anyone but himself with the job of protecting Bella
Amber: it's about something happening too fast for Jacob to even stop it
Amber: you're right, at this point, Edward hasn't learned how to trust anyone but himself, but he also sees the wolves as something that she needs protection from. Talking about fresh wounds...he just thought she was dead, so the thought of her being somewhere that her future disappears???
Amber: that's why he disabled the car
Amber: it wasn't just "I said she couldn't go and she's going to try and go anyway"
Amber: It was "Alice just called and said she disappears"
Kerry: yeah, especially after 50 years of depending on Alice's visions...
Kerry: to have the future not just be 'unknown' but actually 'gone'..
Kerry: But I was still mad at him. Mad, but no way could I have sent him away. I would have reopened the window too
Amber: I'd say I was more frustrated than mad
Amber: and I would have so reopened that window too
Amber: I mean, it's just like when Jon makes me furious...but I still end up turning to him
Kerry: I always liked that, it's a good symbolism of "we can work through anything"
Amber: the door, or window in this case, will always be open
Amber: and in some tiny's an "I have to choose" moment
Amber: all through Eclipse, she's choosing between Edward and Jacob
Amber: in this moment, she's choosing not to let him keeping her away from Jacob come between them
Kerry: Back on the subject of Edward's feelings on the wolves... his monologue on why Alice can't see them...about them being so unpredictable that the future can't hold them. Pretty much sums it up for him.
Amber: I think that's a very, very good point
Sabrina : Well, ladies, I don't hate Edward. It's not that I don't understand his perspective. It's just that, at some point, he has to let Bella make her own decisions. Bella remains alive because the wolves saved her. It just seems like, to me, that a tiny little bit of trust might be warranted in addition to the gratitude.
Amber: I suppose maybe that's where I've gone wrong here
Amber: it's not that I think Edward is right
Amber: it's just that I understand
Kerry: me either, i understand his mindset, but he's handling it all wrong
Sabrina : And, I also think that, despite his good intentions, there has to be some jealousy involved. He has to have seen Bella's relationship with Jacob through the eyes of others. He has a good reason to be jealous.
Kerry: sure he's jealous
Kerry: on a number of levels
Kerry: I just don't think it's entirely his motivation here.
Kerry: part of it, sure, but not all
Amber: maybe the reason I don't get so upset with him is because I don't hold these illusions that he's perfect
Amber: I hear so much "Oh, he's perfect"
Sabrina : No, definitely not at all. But it's not as altruistic as he would have Bella believe, either.
Amber: well he's not
Amber: again, I don't think it's him that's trying to act that way
Amber: we're seeing this all through Bella's eyes
Amber: it doesn't occur to her that he's jealous because she doesn't think he has a reason to be
Kerry: A point I've always wanted to make
Kerry: about Edward being 'perfect'
Kerry: The only time Bella has talked about him being 'perfect' was about his physical appearance...
Amber: what I meant was people who read the book and say "I want an Edward, he's so perfect"
Amber: and I've been told "I hate when people say they married their Edward. That's not possible because Edward is perfect and no one is perfect."
Sabrina : I think people get that because they see Bella's attitude... sometimes it seems like she thinks he can do no wrong. If you read a little deeper, sometimes you can see more of a "grin and bear it" situation. I don't think she believes he's perfect either, but I think that's where people get the idea.
Kerry: yeah, it's a big misinterpretation of the story
Amber: Edward definitely pushed his hand
Amber: I think it irritated me more that he knew what Charlie was going to talk to her about than that he disabled her truck
Amber: I would have left the window open too
Amber: Edward's heart is in the right place
Sabrina : I actually thought it was funny that he let Bella get blind-sided by that little lecture.
Amber: well in all reality, it was probably better that way
Amber: easier for her
Amber: although, I could just as easily have seen him rolling down the window just before he pulled away and saying "Bella, Charlie's going to have the sex talk"
Amber: HAHA
Kerry: HAH
Kerry: Ok, so give me one or two sentences of your feelings on this chapter
Sabrina : My overall feelings are that Edward needs to back off a bit, and be more forth-coming. Jacob still needs to pull his head out of his butt and try to make his friendship with Bella work.
Amber: I understand where Jacob's coming from too though
Amber: He's hurting
Sabrina : Yeah, I understand, but he needs to understand her point of view as well.
Sabrina : I really am Team Charlie.
Kerry: Team Charlie!
Amber: I think that's the general feeling from this chapter.
Amber: Team Charlie
Sabrina : Yeah, pretty much.
Sabrina : Merry Christmas, you guys.
Amber: Merry Christmas!

So um, Team Edward and Team Jacob might be getting a little at odds, it's a good thing we like each other.

What are your thoughts on Edward's actions in this chapter? Do you think he's crossing a line? Do you think Bella is too easy on him? Do you understand her motivations as well as his? Or none of them? Are you Team Charlie?

Either way, we hope you're enjoying this as much as we are. Have a Merry Christmas!


Desiree said...

You guys hit on good points as always. One I didn't really think about like the Edward sees Jacob's interest/love in others minds/thoughts....his jealousy to that.

Her second guessing herself w/Edward though. Someone who's been through ALOT, seems to try to avoid more than needed...she already has enough going on. So that's the trust, but I would've confronted him.....tell/ask "I feel like your avoiding me somehow what's the reason, does it have something to do w/Alice's vision."

Don't know if it's me I notice she has confrontation issues. I think that's apart of this "New love & Relationship" thing.
When she gets her "get free pass" from Charlie, the let's give a few days... I would've been all over that. Free is FREEEEEE!!

She tries to see Jacob and he dismantles the truck. When I read it for the first time I sorta expected but still made me drop my mouth open. I understood her being angry at him. Why he was doing it. I would've got a word in & fussed at him. First for scaring the crap out of me then for doing what he did. And stormed back into the house, slammed that window shut too. Then I would've calmed down, waited(let him sweat it out, he he) then opened it back up.

As far as "perfect Eddie" I agree he isn't perfect. His body maybe...although I'm more attracted to Jacob's body-typed guys...sigh....What was I talkin about...right..ok moving on.

I think he's "perfect boyfriend" etc because he is a gentleman, Chaste (think about it if he really wanted her he could but he doesn't). I mean most boyfriends today are quick to pass all the "bases" wanting to go straight to 3rd and home(if you know what I mean). I see the evidence. I've been there to deliver them & their babies. We have high rates of teenpregnancy d/t low self-esteem. Looking for that attention and instead of being the dodting boyfriend like Edward should be.. The TV shows and most books have teenagers sleeping together. Ads on TV selling nothing but SEX.

Eddie doesn't push the physical-ship. he & she by doing that put emphasis on the important, the foundation of a TRUE relationship...the emotional, companionship, the relate-ability of 2 people. He's there for her, listens (whether he likes whats comming out or not), & openly talks to her about most things; white lies well he's protecting her. We've all done that. He wants to give her the world (& can literally), he's protective of her (seems overly, but we do know her history w/danger!) he compromises & gives her her extra leash (remember she is being hunted down to be killed....),

I think that's what everyone is talking about perfect. Its the ideal guy, when you disregard all the monsters & vampires stuff. I do say I married my Edward (although he is far from rich). My husband loves me for all my faults (& puts up w/them time & time again), Still attracted to me physically even as I age & after my two children have ravaged my body, Even when I gained 40#s (which after 2 yrs finally am down 37#s!!!). He shares in the cooking, cleaning, kid rearing, He is & always has been a gentleman about our intimate relationship. Its been work to get us here, cause our relationship is not perfect, far from, esp. w/a special needs child in the mix. But that's the "True" nature of one. You have to work at it constantly. They show this with Ed & Bella.

I was 16 the hubby was 18 when we met. Love at 1st site (met on a blind date) & were inseperable then on....And yeah, I got that semi-sex-talk from my dad too! We literally went 4 - 5 years straight a day w/o seeing each other. We married young (just turned 20)& not b/c I was knocked-up. Now 34 & celebrated 14 year anniversary couple months ago.

On that happy note. Hope everyone had/has a very Merry Christmas, Happy Chanuka, Kwanza, etc!!!

Desiree said...

Sorry can be long-winded sometimes..

Anonymous said...

Love the book talk! I have to go back and reread. I thought since I've read it twice I'd be able to keep up but now I want to go back and reread to follow your talk. But I do have to say that Bella and Edward kissing scene there in the middle was a HUGE distraction!!! = )

Desiree said...

Anon: Yep, it was a distraction...hehe....I had to re-read the discussion

Kerry said...

hahah... I'd apologize for the distraction, but I'm not THAT sorry. I might have gotten a bit distracted while posting...too..